Prot warrior and pvp (discussion started in Kara2 thread)

[Esk]

Remember you can still TANK as a MS warrior if you know what you're doing. The gear is the same.

Ofc, for the hard bosses this isn't recommended, but for the first bosses a good geared warrior even if MS spec can do just as good as a bad geared warrior protection spec.

Remember we tanked the first bosses with Joplaya as feral (no epic gear), Turbinio's warrior, Gelnar when his gear was far from good (444 def) and we still managed.
And we tanked the trash to prince with Ttk as OT. It's harder for healers, but not impossble. Ttk never died :P

A MS warrior with the top gear (like Xzini and Nimor), can still have 500def, 12k hp.

Actually, to test this, Xzini and Nimor can you guys post your stats using tanking gear, but with MS spec?

***

Before others bitch at me :P A Protection warrior is ofc > MS warrior BUT Karazhan raid 2 has a tank problem atm. Quite a big one.
- Rai has rl problems and can't play
- Nimor, Xzini - available but MS spec - both have good gear however
- Razyel

So.. unless Razyel can come (and you have to remember the 'luck' factors - internet connection problems, mom, exams etc), we are down to 0 raiding unless we can accept a MS warrior to main tank. :P

If Razyel can come, then everything is good, as a MS warrior has no problem being OT for the trash mobs and the 2 bosses that require an OT (attumen, curator).

If for some reason we get to bosses like Prince /Nightbane and Raz isn't available, if everyone in the raid donates 10g, it will cover the warrior's respec cost :P

***

It's either this, or no raiding, or raiding and having crap group composition for it :)
In other words, principle vs epixx.

From my previous experience (you all remember Tee and Shade of Aran trash), epixx won.

[Turbo]

we could also consider recruiting other geared warriors that wanna tank and not PvP, i could go for PvP speck too and come with half of my normal dmg, couldn't that be great?..........the think is that we need to go for the limits of our characters in order to proceed in instances, doing first bosses with a MS speck warrior is like having a massage to a wood leg (Romanian expression :P), we will just make the healers to use more pots and consumables in order to keep them up......

I don't think xzini wanna do raids anyway as the raid is taking most of a player's online time....

[Esk]

What you say is true, but there is one aspect you don't see here.

Every class, with ONE exception, can do Arenas with any spec (as long as you do it for fun, and not too competitive). And arenas are too fun, can be done at any hour (during the day, late night after raids, absolutely any time).

Mage, Warlock, Shaman, Hunter, Rogue, Paladin, Priest, Druid - these classes, no matter the spec, can do arena with no problem.
- The dps will dps.
- The healers will heal.

However, there is no aggro concept in PvP. You are either dps or healer.
So what can a protection warrior do? Nothing.

Besides having trouble to farm, he can't join any arena teams to have some fun. Since there is nothing he can do. Protection warrior is the one class that can't play both aspects of the game atm. And tbh, this sux.

I don't say play both aspects in a competitive way. I say just play.
This is stupid, and it's Blizzard's fault, but it's not fair for every class to be able to do arenas, except for one, who is told "hey, we all can raid and do PvP. But you, if you want to raid, you can't pvp anymore"

[Nakoda]

Esk that is a huge generalisation. Ofc there are certain specs from other classes that can't do arena, prot warriors are not the only ones. Although it does suck that blizz can't seem to balance all classes for PvP and PvE but this is a PvE based game so what do you expect?

[Turbo]

Esk i can't have fun in PvP with my actual speck....is just suicidal so from my point of view i can't do PvP either

There are warriors that wanna do instances, look for them and recruit 1 or 2.....we need ppl that are determined to proceed and not ppl that are coming only because we can't replace him...other factors will appear in time and if someone wanna do arena than let him do arena and move on

[Esk]

prot warriors are not the only ones.
Can you tell me the other specs?

Remember I am not talking about top arena teams 1800+ rating.
I am simply talking about ~1600 arena teams that play for fun.

[Nakoda]

Prot paladins have as much trouble, and if we are talking casual team than prot warrirors are fine. Concussion Blow, Last Stand, Vitality, Imp Disarm (if anyone takes that any more for tanking), Imp Def Stance, Tactical Mastery, Focused Rage, Imp Shield Bash, Imp Revenge. Plus any other points in fury/arms that help.

If you are playing it casual and not aiming for high rating than a prot warrior is fine, you just need to use a bit of initiative and probably more skill to get the best out of what you have.

[Esk]

Prot paladins have as much trouble, and if we are talking casual team than prot warrirors are fine. Concussion Blow, Last Stand, Vitality, Imp Disarm (if anyone takes that any more for tanking), Imp Def Stance, Tactical Mastery, Focused Rage, Imp Shield Bash, Imp Revenge. Plus any other points in fury/arms that help.

If you are playing it casual and not aiming for high rating than a prot warrior is fine, you just need to use a bit of initiative and probably more skill to get the best out of what you have.
Prot paladins - haha perhaps true. However those are like what... 0.00001% of the WoW community. Paladins are healadins these days :)

Prot warrior in PvP? - haha, do spec Ten protection and play with him, and then you'll see.
Conc Blow - okish, stun a few secs
Last Stand - what the hell for? Do you really think a warrior gets nuked when cloth is around?

Revenge? - if your target dodges... switch to prot in the hope for a stun? and ofc extra aggro? Instead of nuking the hell of that target?

Plate in PvP won't be nuked. Warriors are taken down after the cloth is down. The warrior's role is to do good damage, so he can be a pain in the ass for the opponent cloth. He is there as dps. A protection warrior can't dps. Unless the warrior can do one of those heavy hits, why take a warrior?

I did 2v2 with Atw (as MS spec ofc, but atw is crazy and respec X times /week), the whole game reduces to him killing someone before their dps kills me. It's a dps vs dps. If he can't hit hard enough to get the opponent down fast, we lose. Very simple.

***

I will move all this to the Arena thread... it's not about Kara 2 anymore :P

[Nakoda]

I played Ten in arena when he had quite a few points in prot (his OT spec). You'd be surprised how many ppl actually do nuke the warrior in lower rating games and even as prot with a 2-hand weapon and WF totem the dps isn't as bad as you think.

If healer gets CC'ed then Last Stand and/or Lifegiving Gem actually help quite a bit and a well timed stun to prevent a heal is better then getting a 600 hit and the person getting healed for 3k.

edit: move this one aswell then pls :) was too slow to get my reply in...

[Esk]

get Ten prot (or whatever his ot spec).. do some 2v2 with me (skirmish :P), I really need to see a prot warrior dps in pvp :)

I'll pay for his respec just to see this

ps - no joke

[Allora]

Esk, all my teams nuke warriors 1st in pvp, 2v2, 3v3, 5v5. But that's not the point. Warriors are usefull in pvp for 3 things. MS debuff, high crits and commanding shout. All warrs have com shout, but not even fury not to mention prot warrs have the other 2. Im not talking about competitive teams, im talking about ANY team with a minimum of decency and self-esteem. If u want to reach 1200 with your team u can play anything ofc. :)

As for the prot paladin arguement, I find it false. A 1600 rating can very well use a 41 prot 20 holy pala as a healer. Its not as effective as a 41 holy 20 prot pala, but not so much different either. Ofc, the pala has to use healing gear not his usual tanking gear. Besides, as Esk said, palas are rarely required to spec protection for any reason. Usually, guilds ask for their pve paladins to be 41 holy and thats it, so it isnt a problem for them to also do arenas. As a matter of fact, there are only minor differences between the most pve usefull spec of a pala and the most pvp effective. While for warriors... if guilds would require them to spec MS, it would be ok, even if, lets say, they wouldnt have flurry or even death wish, but guilds require them to spec to be useless in anything else but tanking mobs.

Certainly, there is a number of other class specs that dont go well with pvp, but none of them is even nearly as useless as the prot warrior. These would be: enhancement shaman, holy priest if he doesnt have talents spent in blessed resilience, retribution paladins, destruction warlocks, fire mages. BUT, the major difference between these and prot warrs is that, in a team that doesnt aim too high, either of them is playable, or easily solvable no matter what aspirations they have from pvp (as in the holy priest that has to move only 3 points of his talent points, and be all ok), or is a spec which is really not good for pve either, such as the retribution tree from paladins.

[Alltheway]

it is possible to set up a spec which allows you to PvP as well as tank. however, we're just talking threat here and not the extreme survivability of the MT

if i recall right... when i go to arms, to tank i need to swtich gear to increase my defense (i keep my defense low in MT gear to maximise stamina.

before patch,
13547 hp unbuffed
503 defense
39.8% parry + dodge
26.2% block
in protection

in arms, i lose about 1k hp (gear as well as vitality talent), 490 defense, 35% parry + dodge, 21% block

[Holycola]

Oh seems your 2v2 team is opposite to ours...since we have me(retripala)+madavaster(affliction?..I dont know he is naab <3) madavaster with blessing of freedom is kiting warrior while I+his dots kill other...Its amazing how even +2100 rated teams try just catch madavaster even they have no chance for it.

[Allora]

Im dispelling bof all the time.

[Putin]

madavaster(affliction?..I dont know he is naab <3)
You are right on both. He is affliction and he is a n00b. :)

[Holycola]

thats what most of warlocks are :P (scorpyss is pro thou :P)

And Allora its true you can dispell it..but with stuns/deathcoils and stuff hitting you..its not that easy :P (before idea of kiting we had huge problems vs warr+healer but so far no problems to beat em)

[Allora]

We are having no probelm beating combos that include paladins. None whatsoever. Besides not only i got a chance to remove stun, but my teammate is a rogue and has stuns of his own too to stop the lock from focusing me. And a retri paladin takes about 2-3 minutes to kill me, and not only that but dispel is 1 button, instant. Not to hard to do :p

[Holycola]

Hehe well me/mada have no problems vs rogues...so would like cool to face you :P ..(even my gear is bit outdated compared others :P)

atm only *big* head we have taked was vs prod/janine winning em 3 times row :P ..(I dont check what teams we win unless they are from zenedar and good rated)

Idea of having retribution at team is ..that no1 expects to face em normally (ok maybe some <1500 rating ones might have retri but still) and so many teams think we are noobs and dont try their best.

[Madavaster]

yea Allora u can generalize that retri takes zomg so long to kill any1 and that u can dispell everything, fact is i can also use curse of exhaustion , gnome escape to get rid of the gayness one time, u are not always having time to dispell bof also, and sometimes ud be surpised how with nice combo of holy's crits , death coil shadowburn while alll dots up, instant fear and spell lock without u even casting is a stuff that kills many shadow priests without doing anything